The following notes come from stenographic records of the CC of CPSU (B)and record verbatim the conversation between JV Stalin and Dolores Ibarruri of the Spanish Communist Party. Ibarruri had submitted a set of five questions to Stalin which formed the initial basis of discussion in the meeting between the leaders of the two parties. They show important light on the post war choices made by the CP of Spain and the approach preferred by Stalin. (EB, RD)

1. The Communist Party of Spain believes that the North American imperialists are using our country as one of the bases of major political and strategic importance for the development of their plans for world domination. Therefore, the struggle of the Spanish people against Francoism requires more active assistance and support from the forces of the democratic and anti-imperialist camp. Is this assessment correct?

2. Our policy of struggle for a democratic republic and especially our defence of national independence and sovereignty against the plans for domination of North American imperialism are having successes among the masses, but are encountering the vicious opposition of the socialist, anarchist and republican leaders who serve imperialism and are oriented toward clashes with the forces of reaction with the aim of isolating and destroying our party.

Despite the fact that such a situation is fraught with the danger of remaining isolated from the parties represented by the aforementioned leaders, we consider it necessary to firmly adhere to our policy.

Is this position of our party correct?

3. Considering the contempt of the working class for the Falangist trade unions and the police-bureaucratic character of these trade unions, in which there is no possibility for workers to act, and bearing in mind the deep-rooted traditions of the union of workers and farm labourers in Spain into class trade unions, the Communist Party is trying to organize underground class trade unions and has had positive results in this matter.

Is our position correct?

4. The partisan movement is growing and plays a major role in mobilising and organizing the peasant masses against Francoism.

We consider the partisan movement to be one of the most important factors in the development of resistance and the nationwide anti-Franco struggle.

Is this point of view correct given the current situation of our country in the current international situation?

5. The Communist Party of Spain attaches great importance to the possibility of having closer and more permanent ties with the international communist movement.

Immediately after the meeting of nine communist parties in Warsaw, the Communist Party of Spain sent a request to be included in the Information Bureau created there.

Are there any grounds for not including the Communist Party of Spain in the Information Bureau at this time?

What other formula can be found for establishing the indicated ties?

Top Secret

Recording of the conversation between Comrade I. V. Stalin and the leaders of the Communist Party of Spain, Comrades Dolores Ibarruri, Francisco Anton and Santiago Carrillo.

August 5, 1948 at 11:00 PM

Present at the conversation were Comrade V. M. Molotov, Comrade M. A. Suslov, and Comrade A. E. Badalyan (translator)

Comrade Stalin says that he has received a document setting out the questions of the leaders of the Communist Party of Spain, and considers it appropriate to discuss them.

Comrade Stalin reads the first point of the document and says that he considers this point to be correct.

Comrade Stalin reads the second question and asks how the Spanish Communists understand the task of the struggle against the Franco regime in Spain and the methods of struggle.

Ibárruri says that the Communist Party of Spain is currently setting itself the task of uniting all anti-Franco forces in the struggle against Franco, including those who, during the war in Spain, went with Franco against the Republic. The Communist Party of Spain came to this conclusion in 1942, when they learned from experience that among Franco's supporters, after his victory, currents of dissatisfaction had arisen.

Comrade Stalin says that this is correct and asks who exactly these dissatisfied former supporters of Franco are.

Ibárruri replies that, in particular, monarchist and conservative circles occupy a certain place among the dissatisfied. They opposed the Republic in the hope of replacing the republican regime with a monarchist one. But since these circles have now found that they are not on the same path with Franco, they should also be used. The task is to completely unite all anti-fascist elements and achieve their activation, remembering that the main anti-Franco force is the workers of Spain, first and foremost, and the working class. Franco put the question in such a way that in modern Spain there can exist either a fascist or a communist regime. He believes that there is no middle way. The Communist Party of Spain proves that at the present time in Spain there can very well exist a democratic regime acceptable to the absolute majority of Spaniards, in the creation of which all anti-Franco elements should take part on the basis of broad national unity.

Comrade Stalin says that with their third question the Spanish comrades, noting the contempt of the working class for the Falangist trade unions, set the task of creating illegal class trade unions.

Comrade Stalin asks whether the Spanish comrades consider this point correct.

Ibarruri answers that she considers this point correct and absolutely necessary.

Comrade Stalin says that he considers this point incorrect and unnecessary.

Ibarruri says that it is impossible for the Communist Party of Spain to remain without its own trade unions.

Comrade Stalin asks what trade unions exist in Spain.

Ibarruri replies that in Spain there are only Falangist trade unions. All workers and employees are obliged to belong to these trade unions. But these trade unions are only a fiction. They have absolutely no rights. There are no trade union meetings. Questions of wages or any questions in general cannot be discussed in trade unions. They are led only from above, in a police-like way; they carry out orders coming from above. In these conditions, socialists and anarchists, who do nothing against the Franco regime, create their own trade unions, just in case and have already restored the old trade union centres - UHT and SNT (General Union of Workers - socialist trade union, National Confederation of Workers - anarchist trade union). In these conditions, communists cannot remain on the sidelines and must create their own trade unions.

Comrade Stalin says that the task of communists is to enter the existing trade unions, to study the people inside these unions, establish connections, expand these connections and involve the existing trade unions in active struggle. This is difficult, painstaking work, requiring much effort, time and especially patience. Haste cannot bring benefit to the Communist Party, which is in the stage of gathering and accumulating forces. And for this we need not closed, or, as they say here, class, illegal trade unions, but a broad trade union mass, within which the communists must work, under the present conditions, without revealing themselves, and give these unions the necessary direction. To create class trade unions is a much easier task and less useful than to work among the broad masses.

Ibarruri says that the attempt to create class trade unions in Spain has yielded some positive results that should not be discounted. In particular, working in this direction, it was possible to organize large strikes in 1947 in the Basque Country and in Asturias. There were other strikes. In the north, about 66 thousand workers took part in strikes.

Comrade Stalin says that the strikes themselves, including those that took place in individual regions, should not be overestimated and given too much importance. We must not forget the lessons of the past. In our old Russia, Father Gapon also organized many strikes. The whole of Petersburg was on strike. The results are well known. If the Communist Party has forces, they must be directed to all organizations so that it has its hand everywhere, and not to tear this force away from the masses. Success can be ensured only by constant, systematic, patient study and identification of close and necessary people among the entire mass of trade unions, to work within these trade unions. You need to have patience, and the Spanish Communists want immediate results. In the revolutionary struggle against the tsarist regime, we often had to join not only trade unions, but also completely apolitical organizations. For example, the society for the fight against drunkenness (we looked for and found the necessary people there), and to use this society for revolutionary purposes, or the society for the fight against prostitution. As if Spain is no exception, and all legal opportunities must be used there as well.

Comrade Stalin asks whether the Spanish comrades know what legal opportunities are and how they use these opportunities.

Ibarruri says that in Spain there are essentially no legal opportunities, especially in the cities. Nevertheless, they use these legal possibilities, particularly in the villages. They make extensive use of peasant organizations, called "brotherhoods" in Spain, and in many cases they achieve the desired effect on the peasants.

Comrade Stalin says that one should not limit oneself to peasant organizations, but should penetrate all organizations, especially trade unions. In this way the party will create opportunities for itself, to communicate with the masses, and by expanding its connections with them, it will be able to act within these masses, directing them along the right path.

Ibarruri says that the communists whom the party sends to the trade unions are called traitors by private workers. This is unpleasant.

Comrade Stalin says that this is wrong. When the workers see for what purpose the communists came to them, they will treat them differently. In pre-revolutionary Russia, there were also people in our party who demanded that the communists be recalled from everywhere. They demanded for them to be recalled from the trade unions that were not revolutionary or class-based, they demanded to recall the workers' representatives from the State Duma, they were against the use of legal opportunities. These were the otzovists, that's what they are called in our party. It was Lenin who defended the task of using legal opportunities. Lenin exposed the otzovists. The Bolshevik Party did not follow the otzovists. Later, as it is known, the otzovists were beaten. These are the lessons of the past. The document of the Spanish comrades says that they treat the Falangist trade unions with contempt. It is simpler and easier to stand aside and to despise or hate. It is much more difficult to enter these trade unions and to carry out necessary and useful work there. This is the task.

Ibarruri says that she now understands the significance and necessity of work in trade unions and in other broad mass organizations and expresses her agreement with the opinion of Comrade Stalin.

Comrades Anton and Carrillo agree with the opinion of Comrade Stalin.

Comrade Stalin says that this is a difficult but absolutely necessary matter.

Comrade Stalin asks whether there is a leading centre of the Communist Party inside Spain.

Ibarruri says that at present there are regional (provincial) party centres inside Spain. All-Spanish leading centres have failed several times. The last time an all-Spanish centre failed was in 1947 in Madrid, and all its members were shot.

Comrade Stalin says that experience suggests that the centre should be transferred from Madrid to another, more reliable place. Regional centres are needed, and they should be preserved.

Comrade Stalin says that before the Russian Revolution the Central Committee of the Bolshevik Party was located abroad, and in Russia the Bureau of the Central Committee of the RSDLP operated, consisting of 3, maximum 5 people. The Central Committee of the Spanish Communist Party is also outside Spain, but it was necessary to have a small centre in Spain and reliably disguise it. The existence of regional centres is also caused by necessity. It is necessary to ensure that the party cadres are preserved and at the same time able to act.

Ibarruri recognizes the advisability of transferring the leading centre of the party from Madrid to another, more reliable place.

Comrade Stalin, touching on the fourth question of the document of the Spanish comrades on the growing guerrilla struggle in Spain against Franco, asks how matters stand with the guerrilla movement.

Ibarruri answers that the guerrilla movement in Spain has existed since the first days of Franco's rebellion, at first it arose spontaneously. All those who were threatened by Franco were forced to hide. In many cases, some, thinking only of their own existence, even engaged in banditry. Since then, the Communist Party has established contact with the guerrillas and directs the guerrilla movement through its people.

Comrade Stalin says that this is the right measure. The guerrilla movement must be managed and directed. Communist activists whose tracks are discovered by the police must also be sent to guerrilla areas to protect them from the police and to give the guerrillas direct assistance.

Ibarruri says that the Communist Party of Spain understands this task and is working in this direction.

Comrade Stalin says that of the questions raised by the Spanish comrades, the last question is about the entry of the Communist Party of Spain into the Information Bureau of Communist Parties.

Ibarruri says that the Communist Party of Spain is very interested in this. Comrade Stalin says that he understands the desire of the Communist Party of Spain, but for some reasons it is not possible to satisfy this desire.

Comrade Stalin explains that in order to join the Information Bureau, a party must exist legally, be a mass party, and have political weight within the country. The entry of small and illegal parties into the Information Bureau could create a difficult situation for such parties. They could easily be accused of being "agents of Moscow". Such an accusation is difficult to bring against large and mass parties - such as, for example, the Communist Parties of France or Czechoslovakia or the corresponding organizations in Poland and other countries. But not all of the legally existing parties can yet join the Information Bureau. For example, the Communist Party of Finland exists legally, but it is still a small party, not a mass party, and it is easy to attribute to it such a "sin" as "agent of Moscow". That is why it is not timely to raise the question of the Communist Party of Spain joining the Information Bureau. But this does not mean that the Information Bureau leaves the Communist Party of Spain on the sidelines. It is necessary to provide assistance to the Communist Party of Spain and keep it informed of all the events and affairs of the Information Bureau.

Comrades Ibarruri, Anton and Carrillo answer that for them Comrade Stalin's explanation is completely clear and understandable.

Comrade Stalin asks how matters stand with the party press.

Ibarruri answers that the party press exists. In France, the organ of the Communist Party of Spain, Mundo Obrero, is published.

Comrade Stalin asks how often the newspaper Mundo Obrero is published, whether it is distributed in Spain itself, and whether newspapers are published in Spain itself.

Ibarruri answers that Mundo Obrero is published weekly in France. When important materials are published, special editions are issued for Spain. In Spain itself, small newspapers are published in various places. The newspaper is published most regularly, once a month, in Galicia. In addition, newspapers are published less regularly in Asturias, the Basque country, Catalonia, and other places. The newspaper is published most regularly outside Spain, in particular, in Algeria (Africa).

Comrade Stalin asks whether the French authorities persecute the Spanish Communists.

Ibarruri answers that the authorities are watching the Spanish Communists, but the latter still have the opportunity to work in France. One form of persecution consists of making it difficult to publish newspapers. The Communist newspaper in Casablanca has already been closed.

Comrade Stalin asks how the leadership of the Communist Party of France helps the Communist Party of Spain.

Ibarruri answers that the assistance of the Communist Party of France is insignificant and even bad. For example, when the Franco-Spanish border was opened, the Communist Party of France limited itself to reprinting a newspaper article. It did not react to this fact, as a result of which Franco sent his agents to France, which also made the work of the Communist Party of France difficult.

Comrade Stalin, noticing that the Central Committee of the French Communist Party is obviously afraid of the French police, asks with whom personally from the leadership of the French Communist Party Comrade Ibarruri maintains contact.

Ibarruri answers that she maintains contact with the entire leadership of the French Communist Party, including comrades Thorez, Duillo, Marty and others.

Comrade Stalin asks how Thorez helps in the work.

Ibarruri answers that the help from Thorez is insignificant. In times of difficulties, especially of a material nature, Thorez and other comrades hardly take into account the Communist Party of Spain. For example, to publish the organ of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Spain, paper was needed. The French comrades gave this paper at black market prices.

Comrade Stalin notes that the French Communists must have a highly developed trading side.

Comrade Stalin asks whether Thorez provides assistance with money and other means.

Ibarruri replies that Thorez allocated with great difficulty something like one and a half million French francs. In addition, the French Communists provided one car, which requires much more fuel than any conceivable internal combustion engine.

Comrade Stalin asks how the fraternal parties treat the Spanish questions.

Ibarruri replies that the attitude of the fraternal parties is unsatisfactory and incomprehensible. For example, the Communist Parties of Belgium, Holland, Sweden, Switzerland and others believe that the Spanish problem is a matter of the past, related to history. The whole trouble is that these parties do not want to consider the question of Spain as a pressing, militant issue. Approximately the same opinion exists in the Communist Party of Italy. They are even afraid to publish materials from the Spanish Communist Party in their press. Either they do not publish these materials at all, or they publish them in such a form that they are difficult to recognize later.

Comrade Stalin says that the Communist Party of Italy and other countries cannot be indifferent to who is in power in Spain.

Comrade Stalin asks how things stand with material resources in the Communist Party of Spain.

Ibarruri answers that the material resources of the Communist Party of Spain are quite meagre and limited. The Spanish emigration lives in difficult conditions. Nevertheless, it has collected up to 65 million French francs. Many refused the most necessary things, including food, and gave their funds to the party. By the way, perhaps for the first time in the history of the labour movement, a communist newspaper published in Algeria, since it goes on sale, does not require funds from the party and even gives something to the party. In general, the material situation of the Communist Party of Spain is extremely limited. The Communist Party of Spain keeps its available funds in Czechoslovakia.

Comrade Stalin says that we can offer assistance - we are talking about monetary funds - and would like to know how much and in what currency.

Comrade Stalin says that our Bolshevik Party is in power and has the opportunity to provide such assistance to the Communist Party of Spain as a form of fraternal support.

Comrade Stalin says that it is unclear to him why Comrade Ibarruri refused the offered assistance last time. If our Party were in opposition and the Communist Party of Spain were in power, we would have accepted the fraternal, selfless assistance offered to us by the Spanish comrades. How can one explain that the Communist Party of Spain refuses such assistance?

Ibarruri replies that she obviously misunderstood the assistance offered last time. At that time, she understood the offer as assistance to her personally, in connection with her return to France. The Communist Party of Spain accepts with gratitude the assistance offered to it by the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks).

Comrade Stalin says that it is necessary to clarify the amount and in what currency it is preferable to receive these funds.

Ibarruri replies that it is desirable to receive the funds in American currency, which can be exchanged for both Spanish pesetas and French francs.

Comrade Stalin asks whether 600 thousand American dollars will be enough.

Ibarruri, as well as Anton and Carrillo, unanimously thank the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks) and Comrade Stalin personally for such significant assistance.

Comrade Stalin says that the Spanish comrades can receive the money and take it with them.

Ibarruri says that the money cannot be taken to France, it can get lost there. It is much more convenient to take this money to Czechoslovakia, where it is easier to manage.

Comrade Stalin asks whether there is a Spanish government in exile and where it is located.

Ibarruri answers that such a government exists, but it does not represent anyone and does not do anything. The government is located in France.

Comrade Stalin asks how the Mexican government treats the Spaniards. How can one explain the reason for the government moving from Mexico to France?

Ibarruri replies that the Mexican government is tolerant of the Spaniards and has not interfered with their work for now. The reason for the government in exile moving to France was explained by the fact that it intended to be active in the struggle against Franco. However, this did not happen, and it, like the socialists and anarchists, hinders the anti-Francoists more than it helps them.

Comrade Stalin asks where Negrin is and what his position is.

Ibarruri replies that Negrin is in the south of France. Now he is behaving like an agent of American imperialism. Negrin recently stated that, regardless of Franco's regime, Spain should be included in the "Marshall Plan".

Comrade Stalin says that Negrin used to be pro-English. Perhaps the Americans pay more than the English. As for the "Marshall Plan", Negrin is worrying in vain. Franco's Spain is receiving loans from the USA.

Ibarruri says that by adopting an American orientation, Negrin has not broken his ties with English imperialism. He has a house in England and travels there frequently.

Comrade Stalin asks whether Negrin is finally lost to the republican movement in Spain.

Ibarruri answers that everything depends on the circumstances and the situation. At present, Negrin is of little use to democratic Spain.

Comrade Stalin asks how the Spanish emigration in Mexico is behaving.

Ibarruri answers that the Spanish emigration is behaving much better than the emigration in the countries formerly occupied by the Nazis, including France. All the republican groups in Mexico support the revolutionary movement. Among them are almost the entire intelligentsia, as well as the former Spanish Prime Minister Giral, who even provides material support to the democratic movement.

Comrade Stalin asks whether the Spanish comrades know Lombardo Toledano and to what extent.

Ibarruri replies that she knows Toledano as a person who very subtly and skillfully serves American interests. All of Toledano's activities are aimed at preventing the Mexican Communist Party from developing.

Comrade Stalin asks how Toledano treats the Communist Parties in other Latin American countries.

Ibarruri replies that he treats all Communist Parties equally badly, but at the same time maintains the guise of a democrat and progressive figure.

Comrade Stalin asks how the leading workers of the Spanish Communist Party behave in Mexico.

Ibarruri replies that the leading workers in Mexico behave well, with one exception. This is about Jesus Hernandez. His wife became the mistress of the Mexican ambassador in Moscow, and he became a friend of this ambassador, and very soon both ended up in the American embassy. Hernandez is as much an adventurer as his wife. Upon arrival in Mexico, Hernandez was expelled from the party. After that, his wife got involved with a Mexican, with whom she went to Spain and is living happily there.

Comrade Stalin asks about the location and status of the military from among the communists.

Ibarruri answers that the bulk of the communist military are in France, about 12 people are in Yugoslavia, who, by the way, need to be taken out of there. The Spanish military are improving their professional knowledge as much as possible.

Comrade Stalin asks what Lister and Modesto are doing.

Ibarruri answers that after their arrival in France they both admitted their mistakes. Both are behaving well. Modesto behaves better than Lister.

Comrade Stalin asks why some of the Spanish military men felt offended by Comrade Stalin.

Ibarruri answers that no one could feel offended by Comrade Stalin.

Comrade Stalin says that there were those who felt offended, and that he would like to know what caused it.

Ibarruri says that there is nothing serious and there could not be. True, during the Patriotic War, a group of military men graduated from military academies and were eager to go to the front. Ibarruri says that she does not consider those military men serious who fantasized that if they were in Latin American countries, they would definitely command armies, or become presidents of countries like Uruguay and Paraguay. It is possible that some of them were offended only because they sincerely wanted to fight on the Soviet-German fronts.

Comrade Stalin says that the question of sending Spanish military to the front was considered. Then Comrade Stalin consulted with the Soviet military and came to the conclusion that it was inadvisable to send the Spaniards to our front.

Ibarruri says that she completely agrees with Comrade Stalin and asks what to do with the 12 Spanish officers who are in Yugoslavia.

Comrade Stalin asks where and when these Spaniards went to Yugoslavia.

Ibarruri answers that these 12 Spanish officers graduated from military academies in the USSR and went to Yugoslavia in 1945 and 1946.

Comrade Molotov says that at that time the demobilization of the Soviet Army was taking place.

Ibarruri says that indeed, the demobilization of the Soviet Army was taking place at that time. At the present time, it is very difficult for the leadership of the Spanish Communist Party to resolve this matter satisfactorily. Ibarruri asks whether it is possible to take these 12 Spanish military comrades to the USSR.

Comrade Stalin replies that everything depends on what kind of people they are. It should not be forgotten that some of the Spaniards entered the service of American intelligence. American intelligence recruited the Spaniards, and the Spaniards went along with it. There is a case when a Spanish pilot flew over our border and landed in Turkey. Two others also tried to flee the USSR, but were arrested, and they testified that they had been recruited by American intelligence. Comrade Stalin says that if we are talking about people who have been thoroughly checked, then there will be no objections on our part to their coming to work in the USSR.

Ibarruri says that she wants to raise the question of aid in arms for the supply of the partisan movement in Spain.

Comrade Stalin asks how the Spanish are doing with arms. Is the French Communist Party helping in this matter?

Ibarruri says that the French Communist Party has no arms. It has disarmed. At one of the meetings of the Central Committee of the French Communist Party, which Comrade Ibarruri attended, the leaders of the Central Committee categorically raised the question of surrendering arms to the government. As far as Comrade Ibarruri knows, the French Communist Party has surrendered its arms. In any case, the French Communist Party is not helping the Spanish Communist Party with arms. The Spanish who took part in the fight against Hitler's troops in France did not surrender their arms. The Spanish Communist Party collected and transported about 1,500 firearms. The Spanish need light machine guns for the partisans. The Spanish Communist Party Central Committee is asking for this.

Comrade Stalin says that we have weapons and that we will also provide assistance with weapons. We just need to think about how to deliver these weapons.

Ibarruri says that she would like to raise one more question. American diplomacy is carefully removing the issue of the UN position on Francoist Spain from the discussion. Moreover, its Latin American agents, for example, the governments of Chile, Peru and other countries, are violating existing UN decisions and normalizing their relations with Franco by sending their ambassadors to him. The Central Committee of the Communist Party of Spain asks the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks) to raise the Spanish question again at the upcoming session of the General Assembly. This will be a great support for the anti-Franco forces in Spain.

Comrade Stalin asks Comrade Molotov for his opinion.

Comrade Molotov says that there is a possibility of raising this question at the General Assembly session.

Comrade Stalin says that the Soviet representative to the UN will make a speech on the Spanish question at the Assembly. However, there is no need to overestimate the UN; it will not make any effective decision.

Ibarruri says that she understands the situation and believes that the speech of the Soviet representative will be useful for the democrats and anti-fascist forces inside Spain.

Comrade Stalin says that there will be no refusal on our part to help the anti-fascist forces in Spain. We will provide them with the promised help. As for the Communist Party of Spain, it must be patient, not rush, not get excited, accumulate strength, use the available legal opportunities, strengthen the party, its organizations, educate and train its cadres to work in mass organizations, prepare these masses for the struggle against the brutal regime of Franco. There can be no hurry at the present time because there is no revolutionary situation yet, while the anti-Franco movement is still fragmented, not united, the period of accumulation and preparation of forces, the period of using all legal means has not yet ended, there is no situation for open struggle. Comrade Stalin says that we will help the Communist Party of Spain and support it.

Ibarruri says that with this one meeting with Comrade Stalin, the leaders of the Communist Party of Spain received such moral and political help that is incomparable and immeasurable.

Comrade Stalin asks what impression the Spanish comrades have of modern life in the USSR.

Ibarruri says that the impression is excellent.

Comrade Stalin says, in that case, live here for a while, do not rush to return.

Ibarruri says that life in the USSR is very good, but that the leaders of the Spanish Communist Party have duties that do not allow them to stay here for long.

Comrade Stalin expresses his wishes for success to the Spanish comrades.

Comrades Ibarruri, Anton and Carrillo declare that after the conversation with Comrade Stalin, their chances of success have increased significantly.

The conversation lasted 1 hour and 45 minutes.

Recorded by A. Badalyan.

Source: RGASPI. F. 558. Op. 11. D. 318. L. 97-116.
Translated from the Russian by Irina Malenko

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