November 18, 1947 at 5 p.m.

Strictly confidential

Comrades Molotov, Suslov and Erofeev (translator) are present.

Thorez declares that he would like above all to pay Comrade Stalin his respects and thanks on behalf of all the members of the Communist Party and the Central Committee.

Comrade Stalin jokingly asks if Thorez thanks him because the French Communists were criticised in Warsaw.

Thorez replied that the French Communist Party was simply grateful to have been confronted with its inadequacies. Thorez declares that he wishes to discuss with Comrade Stalin a number of questions of great interest to the French Communist Party and [also] to receive instructions and advice from Comrade Stalin.

Thorez says that the analysis of the situation made at the meeting of the nine communist parties is perfectly confirmed in France. In particular, American interference in the country is deepening, economic hardship is growing, and the class struggle is becoming more and more acute. The French Communist Party, in accordance with the instructions of the meeting of the Nine [Communist Parties], is leading the struggle for the defence of the country's independence and fighting alone against the whole coalition of reactionary forces. In the last municipal elections, the French Communist Party was able to retain and in parts increase the number of its votes. At the present time de Gaulle has been able to gather around him all the most reactionary elements of France. This was to the detriment of the Socialists and even more so of the MRP [Popular Republican Movement], which lost a large number of votes in the elections.

Comrade Stalin remarks that the MRP is Bidault's party.

Thorez confirms this and adds that the MRP lost 3/4 of its votes in the municipal elections.

Comrade Stalin says that the MRP is a party of transition. People go into the MRP and then move on to de Gaulle.

Thorez states that although there are some well-known differences of opinion between the Socialists, the MRP and the Gaullists on matters of domestic policy, all these parties are united by their commitment to serving the Americans. They all agree on this issue. The leadership of the French Socialist Party combined servility towards the Americans with a ferocious hatred of the Communists and hostility to the USSR. The PCF, in accordance with the line adopted at the meeting of the nine [communist parties], resolutely developed its criticism of the Socialist leaders and the Ramadier government. The French Communist Party is demonstrating to the masses that the Socialists are the faithful servants of American imperialism, they ally themselves with the most reactionary groups and openly carry out provocations. The latest confirmation of this state of affairs is the events in Beauregard. Although the French Communists declare themselves to be in complete agreement with the decisions of the meeting of the nine [Communist Parties], there is hesitation among some of them. Thus, for example, some comrades reacted badly to the cries of the Socialists and to the declarations of Laski. In one of his last speeches, he claimed that Lenin had supposedly supported Kerensky against Kornilov in his time.

Comrade Stalin declares that this is not true and that Lenin never supported Kerensky. Thorez replies that the French Communist Party has rejected Laski's claims and has shown that Lenin, while mobilizing the working class for the struggle against Kornilov, had not for a minute interrupted his attacks on Kerensky.

Comrade Stalin declares that this is true.

Thorez declares that he would like to know Comrade Stalin's opinion on the following important questions. We see the emergence in France of a group that presents itself as a third force, situated between the Communists and the Gaullists. The question of the [political] evaluation of this group is raised.

Comrade Stalin says that in all likelihood in France the consolidation and polarisation of forces will continue. Of course the Communists will get stronger, but so will the Gaullists. All those who would like to establish themselves between peace and war, between the Communists and the Gaullists, will lose their prestige. One must choose between the supporters of peace and the supporters of war. There can be no wavering. Comrade Stalin asks who is the leader of the Socialists. Thorez replies that the leader of the Socialists is Léon Blum.

Comrade Stalin asks whether there is a left wing within the Socialist Party.

Thorez replies that the Socialists have a left wing and that it is led by Guy Mollet. Until the last Socialist Congress, Guy Mollet pretended to have a more left-wing position than that of Ramadier and Blum. However, by the time of the Lyon Congress it became clear that Guy Mollet had an obsequious position towards the United States and hostile to the Soviet Union. Thus, Guy Mollet agrees with Léon Blum on this fundamental question. Thorez says that between Guy Mollet and Léon Blum one cannot make the same difference as between Nenni and Saragat. The French Communist Party has stepped up its fire against the right and against the pseudo-left of the Socialists. It is quite obvious that there are opposition groups within the French Socialist Party, but they are very weak. The "left" socialists publish Franc-Tireur, a newspaper which, on questions of domestic politics, wages, strikes, and workers' demands, tends to take more left-wing positions than those of the Communists. But on the other hand, this newspaper celebrates the Marshall Plan. Franc-Tireur condemns the Atlantic Charter because it speaks of the need to preserve the sovereignty of the various states. In the opinion of the Socialists, this is a reactionary demand that has had its day.

Comrade Stalin states that it seems to him that the Socialists in France, like the Labour Party in Great Britain, are themselves creating left wings within their own party. The most prominent leaders of the left wing are agents of the right-wing. Leaders like Blum in France or Bevin and others in Great Britain understand that significant opposition is likely to arise within their party's base. In order to prevent the members of this opposition from going over to the Communists, a left-wing tendency is created. This left is using demagoguery in order to satisfy the opposition coming from below. [Meanwhile] the rightists hold the leadership of the party in their hands and are leading it on the path they have chosen. By this perfidy and swindle, they deceive the people in order to keep the members of the opposition within their party by not allowing them to go over to the Communists. It is quite obvious that the opposition has good and sincere people, but they are not the ones who are leading the opposition. It is run by people like Zilliacus.

Comrade Molotov adds that Zilliacus himself confessed that he was an agent of the Intelligence Service for many years.

Comrade Stalin says that there are honest people in the opposition and that we must try to get closer to them. The Communists in France and Great Britain must attack the left-wing socialist leaders and appeal to the rank-and-file members of the Socialist Party. Comrade Stalin remarks that Trotsky also attacked the Party from the left, while he himself demanded concessions from the Americans and the British. Thorez says that the Central Committee of the PCF has defined its tactics in the spirit of the decisions of the meeting of the nine communist parties. The French Communist Party had the experience of fighting for the formation of a United Popular Front and the experience of leading the Resistance movement when it appealed to the rank-and-file members of the Socialist Party. This is why the Central Committee of the PCF decided to organize in the factories a union for the independence of France. At the instigation of the Communist Party, the initiative in this matter was taken by the CGT. At the last CGT conference, the Communist Party succeeded in obtaining a majority against the Marshall Plan and against American imperialism. This majority was achieved thanks to Frachon and the support of Saillant. Jouhaux found himself in the minority.

Comrade Stalin asks if Saillant can be believed.

Thorez replies that it is obvious that he should not be trusted too much, but that Saillant had, for the first time, taken a clear position on this extremely important question. The reactionaries in France, like the British and the Americans, had placed all their hopes in this CGT conference which, in their minds, was to end in a split. But these hopes have collapsed and this is a great success for the French Communist Party.

Comrade Stalin says that Jouhaux has [finally] taken off his mask.

Thorez remarks that the French Communist Party worked only with the workers, but also wanted to found a union for the country's independence in the villages.

Comrade Stalin says that this would not be bad.

Thorez says that in December of this year, twenty conferences will be held in various rural departments of the country. [At these conferences] issues affecting the peasants will be linked to the interests of the struggle for the independence of France and against the Marshall Plan.

Comrade Stalin says that we must not go too far in the struggle against the Marshall Plan. [Otherwise] the Socialists will say that the Communists are against receiving credits from the Americans. The answer is: No, we are not against it. The Communists are for credits, but credits that do not affect the sovereignty of France. That is how the Communists should put the question. This must be explained especially to the peasants.

Thorez replies that the French Communist Party was beginning to create unions in many branches of the country's economic life. Thus, for example, a union for the defence of French cinema has just been founded. This union brought together film studio workers, artists, musicians, technicians and film company leaders who spoke out against Blum's agreement with the Americans, which destroyed French cinema.

Comrade Stalin says that this is good.

Thorez states that the Communist Party plans to do the same in the automobile and aeronautics industries. There are even business owners in these unions who are unhappy with the competition from the Americans.

Comrade Stalin says that it is possible, on this basis, to unite all the elements which are fighting for the independence of the national industry.

Thorez states that before the war France occupied one of the first ranks in automobile manufacturing. Now the reconstruction of [our] automobile industry is complicated by the fact that France is overwhelmed by American automobiles and that the weakened French industry cannot compete with the Americans. Thorez says that France was, rightly, considered the Mecca of aviation. At the time when the Minister of Armaments was the Communist Tillon, he was doing everything possible to rebuild the aeronautical industry in France, increase the production of engines and aircraft. However, at present, this production is in the process of being liquidated in France. Recently, de Gaulle announced that he was ready to sell the aircraft factories.

Comrade Stalin declares that the Socialists are selling their Fatherland.

Thorez says that following the meeting of the nine parties, he would like to be able to address an issue that has more to do with the past than with the future. The PCF accepts the justified criticism of its inadequacies and in particular the criticism that it has not been able to quickly and firmly lay bare the plans of American imperialism. Yet, to tell the truth, the last congress of the PCF focused all its attention on the threatening character of American imperialism. The French Communist Party is developing its self-criticism and is tending to correct its shortcomings. However, at the meeting of the nine [communist parties] some representatives of fraternal parties sometimes criticized the PCF unfairly. In particular, for example, the Yugoslav comrades reproached the French Communist Party for having entered the Resistance late and for not having been able, at the decisive moment, during the Liberation of France, to give the power to the People. Thorez says that in his opinion this criticism is not justified. In order to be able to inform the masses of the French party accurately and not to confuse them, Thorez would like to know Comrade Stalin's opinion on this question. Thorez says that the French Communist Party was the first party to begin the struggle in 1939 by defending its country against the German invasion. During the Occupation, the Communist Party was at the head of the armed struggle against the Germans. Even an avowed enemy of the Communist Party like de Gaulle does not question the fact that under the Occupation the Communist Party was the only force organizing armed resistance against the Germans. The fact that the French Communist Party was unable to take power into its own hands at the time of the Liberation of countries in August 1944 can be explained by many reasons of an international nature. At that time the French Communist Party was making every effort to contribute to the opening of a second front as quickly as possible, to strengthen the war effort and to accelerate the victory against Germany. The French Communist Party was in the rear-guard of the American and British armed forces.

Comrade Stalin declares that, of course, the picture would have been quite different if the Red Army had been in France.

Thorez says that at that time de Gaulle, whose prestige had not yet been reached, wished to provoke the Communist Party to lead it into an armed movement. But the Communist Party did not allow itself to be dragged along. It did not wish to weaken itself or isolate itself. The Party has succeeded in showing the people the true face of de Gaulle, this right-wing reactionary, this fascist. Thorez says that, of course, the French Communist Party made mistakes, but that the general line it followed during this period was, in his opinion, the right one.

Comrade Stalin declares that at that time the French Communists could not take power into their own hands. Even if they had taken it, they would have lost it anyway because the Anglo-American troops were in the country.

Thorez says the French Communist Party is also criticised on other issues. In particular, some Soviet comrades, during their stays in France on the occasion of various congresses and conferences, asked our youth why they do not call themselves Communist Youth. These comrades almost accuse the French Youth of opportunism. As a result of this, many of those who come from the ranks of the youth went to the Central Committee of the French Communist Party and declared that the Soviet comrades are critical of the French Communist Youth.

Comrade Stalin declares that he is surprised that such a statement was made by Soviet comrades.

Thorez declares that the French Communist Party should not be reproached for not having named its youth reserve "Communist Youth". Thanks to this, the Party was able to broaden the base of the youth movement. At present, 200,000 young people are under the influence of the Party. Thanks to the same tactics, the French Communist Party was able to keep the six million members of the trade unions on its side. It is also thanks to this tactic that 5,000 to 6,000 women, grouped together in organizations, follow us.

Comrade Stalin declares that the non-party should not be frightened by giving them a party card. However, the Communist Party, in its struggle to put in place a united front and regardless of the forces with which it allies, must safeguard its right to freedom of propaganda. This is an indispensable thing. The French Communists spared the Socialists, but the Socialists do not spare them.

Comrade Stalin asks whether Thorez has met with the Italian Communist leaders and how the present situation of the Italian Communist Party is to be assessed.

Thorez replies that he met with Ercoli [Togliatti] twice and that they discussed some outstanding issues. This took place during Comrade Molotov's stay in Paris. The Italian Communists then criticised the French Communists on the question that had earned them the congratulations of the Yugoslav comrades, namely their position on the Trieste question. Thorez says that, in his opinion, the Italian Communist Party has grown and strongly strengthened its ranks. He, Thorez, has only one fear, and that was that the Italian Communist Party, which was engaged in a course to increase the number of its members, would renounce some of its positions on questions of principle.

Comrade Stalin replies, in the form of a joke, that Mussolini had helped them to understand two or three things and that if Mussolini had been in France he would also have shown the [French] Communists.

Comrade Stalin asks whether Thorez knows any other Italian comrades and what is his opinion of them. Thorez replies that many new people have come into the leadership of the Italian Communist Party, that they have just come out of clandestinity and that he, Thorez, does not know them. Thorez says he knows some of the old Communists and especially Longo, whom he considers a good comrade. Thorez also met D.I. Vittorio. Thorez says that the leaders of the French Communist Party try to meet with representatives of the Italian Communist Party as often as possible.

Comrade Stalin says that this is good and that you should visit each other even more often.

Comrade Stalin asks what state the Spanish Communist Party is in; if it is worth anything and if there are good people in it. Thorez replies that Dolores Ibarruri is in Paris and that he thinks she is working very well.

Comrade Stalin asks if she is the main leader of the Spanish Communist Party or if there is anyone higher up.

Thorez replies that the leadership of the Communist Party includes Carrillo, a former minister in the Spanish Republican government. Lister stands to the side. Mije is working in Madrid. Thorez says that Uribe can also be named among the Spanish comrades and that Uribe is an admirable communist. The French Communist Party is helping the Spanish Communist Party enormously. Comrade Stalin says that it turns out that the Spanish Communist Party has raised the question of sending its representatives to the Information Bureau of the nine Communist Parties. We do not think this is desirable. The Greeks also wanted to send their representatives. We believe that only those parties which attract the broad masses of workers to themselves and act openly should be represented in the Information Bureau.

Thorez says that Duclos gave a special account of the results of the meeting of the nine Communist Parties to the Spanish comrades as well as to the English Communists and in particular to Pollitt, who had come to France. The Belgian comrades were also informed. Spanish Communists were present at the sessions of the Central Committee of the French Communist Party. In addition, on many issues, direct negotiations are taking place between the secretariats of the two parties.

Comrade Stalin asks if there are enemy agents among these Spaniards. They must be carefully controlled. Comrade Stalin asks about the situation of the Communist Party in Belgium.

Thorez replied that the Communist Party was weak in Belgium, but that today it is stronger than on the eve of the war. The old leadership of the Communist Party has compromised itself and is now being replaced by new comrades. Thorez says that he knows some of the old comrades of the Belgian Communist Party, especially Lahaut, who has already been in the ranks of the Belgian Communists for thirty years. Thorez points out that it is interesting to note that the influence of the Belgian Communist Party is greater in regions where French is spoken than in those where the Flemish live.

Comrade Stalin remarks that from the racial point of view the Flemings are closer to the Germans.

Comrade Stalin asks how Thorez assesses the situation in the British Communist Party and whether he thinks that the British Communist Party is expanding.

Thorez replies that, far from expanding, the British Communist Party is weakening. The British Communist Party still has not found its way. The British Communists do not have any confidence in the rank-and-file members of the Labour Party and strut before them as if they were old Bolsheviks. The British Communist Party has cut itself off from the broad masses of the working class. Thorez says that the French Communist Party is trying to help the English Communists.

Comrade Stalin remarks that the British Communists are acting like sectarians.

Thorez says that, in recent times, the British Communists have before them good opportunities for developing their work. They have good people like, for example, Horner, the leader of the miners' union. He may not be a highly developed individual politically, but he is a remarkable comrade, tough, resilient, very loyal, dedicated. He has great authority among the miners.

Comrade Stalin asks if Horner is a member of the Communist Party.

Thorez replied that Horner is a member of the Central Committee of the British Communist Party.

Comrade Molotov remarks that the parliamentary representatives of the British Communists are weak.

Thorez replies that Gallacher is a poor worker. Lenin, in his time, had already criticised him in his book Left-Wing Communism, an Infantile Disorder. Since then, he has learned almost nothing.

Comrade Stalin, remarks that Gallacher has even regressed.

Thorez says that he, Thorez, came to Moscow via Prague where he met Gottwald. If possible, he would like to return from Moscow via Warsaw to talk to the Polish comrades and then, if possible, to pass through Berlin.

Comrade Stalin replies that Thorez can of course do this.

Thorez said he would very much like to talk to the German comrades. At the present time, the German Communists are particularly sensitive to all the attention they receive and that they were particularly pleased with the presence of Comrade Suslov at the Congress of the German Communist Party. Pieck and Grotewohl sent a warm letter of congratulations to Thorez with their thanks for the presence of a French delegation at the congress of the German Communist Party.

Comrade Stalin says that the German Communists are receiving blows from all over and that no one is cajoling them. All the cajoling makes them happy. These poor people have fallen into such misery that it is not all their fault.

Thorez says that in France is published the journal Démocratie nouvelle [New Democracy]. As the Information Bureau is planning to publish its newspaper, he, Thorez, would like to know the opinion of Comrade Stalin as to whether or not to continue the publication of Démocratie nouvelle.

Comrade Stalin asks to whom this journal officially belongs. Thorez replies that the journal belongs to the French Communist Party, although it has at its head representatives of various parties.

Comrade Stalin replies that this journal can be maintained if the democratic forces can regroup with its help. Comrade Stalin asks whether this journal will be expensive. Thorez replies that the printing costs of this journal are negligible.

Comrade Stalin remarks that the French Communist Party has never appealed to the RCP(b) for help, and jokingly adds that it is evidently afraid of such help. Comrade Stalin says that the RCP(b) has material possibilities to provide assistance if necessary.

Thorez replies that the French Communist Party is in a good financial situation and has a large cash reserve. On the eve of the war we had 20 million francs. Today, this amount has increased significantly.

Comrade Stalin says that when Dolores Ibarruri was in Moscow, he asked her if the Spanish Communists needed any material help. She, too, replied that no, the Spanish communists did not need any help.

Thorez replies that the Communists own many companies and in particular the France-Navigation company.

Comrade Stalin asks if it makes money.

Thorez replies that it brought in millions of francs.

Comrade Stalin says that Thorez must know that, when necessary, the RCP(b) is ready to help. If the French Communist Party accepts this help aid, this, of course, does not oblige it to anything.

Thorez thanks Comrade Stalin.

Comrade Stalin says that the Yugoslav comrades are working very well, but they owe a lot to the fact that their country was liberated by the Red Army. If Churchill had delayed the opening of a second front in the north of France for another year, the Red Army would have gone as far as France. Comrade Stalin says that we had the idea of reaching Paris.

Thorez says that the Anglo-Americans landed in France less to destroy Germany than to take up a position in Western Europe.

Comrade Stalin says that, of course, the Anglo-Americans could not let the Red Army liberate Paris while they would have remained on the shores of Africa. [In their minds] it would have been a real scandal.

Thorez says that he could assure Comrade Stalin that the French people would have welcomed the Red Army with enthusiasm.

Comrade Stalin says that under such conditions the picture would have been quite different. Thorez says that then de Gaulle would not exist.

Comrade Stalin says that de Gaulle would have left.

Thorez says he does not want to abuse Comrade Stalin's time.

Comrade Stalin says that Thorez is not at all abusing his time and that they do not have the opportunity to meet so often.

Thorez says that the French Communists will be proud of the fact that he, Thorez, had the honour of conversing with Comrade Stalin. Thorez remarks that, although he is French, he has the soul of a Soviet citizen.

Comrade Stalin says that we are all communists and that means everything.

Comrade Stalin asks where the French Communists stand in terms of armaments. Do they think it's necessary to have them or not?

Thorez replies that the Central Committee of the French Communist Party had given full powers to two comrades—one from the Political Bureau, the other from the Central Committee—to deal specifically with this question. They are Lecoeur, former secretary of the party's organization in Paris during the Occupation, and Tillon, organiser of the partisan movement in France. They carried out their activities within the former partisans and created organisations of a military nature. The French Communist Party has managed to camouflage entire warehouses of arms and ammunition.

Comrade Stalin says that it is necessary to have arms and an organisation in order not to find oneself unarmed in the face of the enemy. Communists can be attacked and then they will have to respond. Various situations may arise. Comrade Stalin says that we have weapons and that we can supply them if necessary.

Comrade Stalin asked whether it would not be possible to establish a permanent links with the French Communist Party, by radio, for example.

Comrade Suslov says that there are [already] some radio links with the French Communist Party. The French have a radio operator trained in Moscow.

Thorez noted that the French Communists had several radio stations.

Comrade Stalin asks whether these radio stations are broadcasting legally or clandestinely. Thorez replied that the radios broadcast clandestinely. Thorez says that the French Communists were able to save radio equipment. At the present time a special link is in the process of being organised in the direction of Sofia for contacts with Comrade Dimitrov. It is not yet in regular use, but the equipment is already assembled.

Comrade Stalin asks if there are any spare radios in case it is discovered. One cannot have just one radio. Comrade Stalin says that the radios should broadcast not from the cities, but from the countryside.

Thorez replied that the radio stations of the French Communists are located in the suburbs. At the end of the war, the French Communists had three types of radio equipment for their links with Moscow.

Comrade Stalin asks if these radios are transmitters and receivers.

Thorez replies in the affirmative.

Comrade Stalin asks what is the range of these transmitters.

Thorez replies that the French transmitters make it possible to maintain a permanent link with Moscow.

Comrade Stalin, passing on to another question, says that the French Communists must work among the peasants. We must not ignore the peasants. This is a very important force, which it is essential to have on your side. In the old days, Marxists did not pay attention to the peasants. This is a wrong point of view that should not be repeated.

Thorez replies that the French Communist Party has a strong influence among the peasants in the central regions of the country and south of the Loire.

Comrade Stalin says that this is good.

Thorez says that in the last elections the French Communist Party won more votes in the countryside than in some cities.

Comrade Stalin asks Thorez if Duclos is a good second-in-command. Comrade Stalin says that Duclos' speech to Parliament, in which he declared that no provocation would lead the working class to an armed uprising, was unfortunate. It must be remembered that the enemy has no mercy for the weak and the unarmed.

Thorez replies that Duclos was a good worker and that he works hard, but he sometimes allows himself to speak in Parliament without sufficiently preparing his speech. That is why he can fall into provocation and say things he did not plan to say. Nevertheless, Duclos is a very good and intelligent communist.

Comrade Molotov asks whether there is any vacillation within the Central Committee of the French Communist Party as a result of the decisions of the meeting of the nine Communist Parties.

Thorez replies that such vacillations have indeed taken place in the Central Committee of the PCF. André Marty, in particular, has taken the wrong positions. This does not surprise him, Thorez, for André Marty, although he is a good soldier full of revolutionary spirit, attaches too much importance to the formal logic [of things]. He does not immediately orient himself in complex situations and during sudden reversals. This time, he even intervened before the Central Committee with a separate report on the meeting of the nine Communist Parties and declared that, in his opinion, enemy No. 1 was de Gaulle. Thorez says he explained to Marty that the enemy No. 1 was American imperialism, which has agents in France, and that these agents are named de Gaulle, the MRP and the Socialists. Marty's erroneous position was investigated before the Politburo. Marty was not particularly thrilled about this. However, the next day he intervened at a meeting of the Communist organizations in Paris and made a good and correct speech about the meeting of the nine [Communist Parties]. Thorez says Marty is a disciplined comrade. This is despite the fact that he is easily angered and it is always necessary to approach him with the utmost patience.

Thorez says that Marcel Cachin is a remarkable militant, even though he is already nearly eighty years old. He is a very energetic and active Communist, but why does he try to persuade himself that being a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the National Assembly gives him the right to direct all foreign policy? Marcel Cachin is one of the USSR's greatest friends. For him, what the Russians say is gospel.

Comrade Stalin asks if Cachin is not subject to relapses due to his past. Thorez says such relapses are not to be noted.

Comrade Stalin says that the French Communist Party has in its ranks Comrade Monmousseau, who has already frightened the whole French bourgeoisie with his strikes. He declares, for example, a general strike. No one is striking, but he has declared it.

Thorez says that Monmousseau is close to Frachon, who is a person devoted to the Party.

Thorez notes that cadres of quality have emerged among the young comrades. The best of them is Fajon. Already in 1940 he had intervened in the National Assembly with an impeccable speech, in the spirit of those of Liebknecht. At present, he is dealing with educational issues and ideological work. Raymond Guyot is a good comrade, former secretary of the Communist Youth. At the present time he is secretary of the communist organisation of a district in Paris. He is a young communist, but he is very talented and already full of experience.

Comrade Stalin asks if any women have been promoted to the leadership.

Thorez replies that there are 7-8 women in the Central Committee, but to tell the truth, they are not particularly active and do not distinguish themselves in any way from the other members of the Central Committee. However, the work among the women is going very well. They maintain close contact with the Women's Anti-Fascist Committee in Moscow. Among them, Vaillant-Couturier is worth noting. She is a very good worker and very capable.

Thorez says that during the war the Central Committee of the PCF had very few traitors and deserters. Of the fifty members of the Central Committee elected before the war, only four turned out to be traitors. Three were killed by the Communists themselves, the fourth was able to escape.

Thorez notes that the Communist Party's weakest point is the lack of mid-level leaders. Many of them were shot by the Germans. During the war, 350,000 Communists were shot by the Germans. It is sad that Communists with great experience in the struggle and who took an active part in the creation of the Popular Front have disappeared. In the hearts of these people burned a sacred hatred of the Social-Democrats. The younger generation of Communists have grown up in different conditions as a result of the war. That's why they require an enormous work [on our part].

Comrade Stalin says that the Party members should be educated.

Comrade Molotov remarks that Frachon is a good comrade.

Thorez replied that Frachon is a remarkable Communist. He has been a member of the Party since 1926. He was a member of the Political Bureau but, because of his transfer to the leadership of the CGT, it was necessary to make him leave the Political Bureau. However, he is present, unofficially, at all meetings of the Political Bureau.

Thorez says that he would sincerely hope that, when the opportunity arose, Comrade Stalin would be able to receive Frachon. Frachon came back a little bitter from his last trip to Moscow because no member of the Central Committee received him.

Comrade Stalin declares that Frachon evidently did not wish to meet anyone. Thorez says that Frachon had met with Kuznetsov of the trade unions, but not with any members of the Central Committee.

Comrade Stalin asks how this could have happened.

Thorez says that all this comes from the fact that Frachon himself did not dare to ask to meet Comrade Stalin or any of the leaders of the Party.

Comrade Suslov says that two years ago Comrade Molotov had a conversation with Frachon.

Comrade Stalin remarks that Frachon should have expressed his wish to meet one of the members of the Central Committee, and adds, in a joking tone: "We receive all kinds of bourgeois, so you can imagine that we will receive Frachon." Comrade Stalin asks if Pétain is still alive.

Thorez says that Pétain is alive with de Gaulle's blessing. He is already 91 years old.

Comrade Stalin asks where Weygand is.

Thorez replies that Weygand lives in France.

Comrade Stalin asks whether Weygand plays any role in political life.

Thorez replies that he plays no role. Thorez says that Weygand and Pétain are people under whom de Gaulle served in his time. Thorez says that he learned, while at the France Embassy, that de Gaulle, during his stay in Moscow, had declared that he would not give anything to the Poles, because he knew too well these Poles and that he had had the opportunity to know them even better when he had the honour of serving under Weygand.

Comrade Stalin remarks that de Gaulle's Chief of Staff is the Pole Palewski. He is an agent of the English. Churchill, in his time, put his agent to watch over de Gaulle.

Thorez says that Massigli, the current French ambassador in London, is also an agent of the English. Thorez recounts that once de Gaulle gave a speech in Algeria where he tried to blackmail the British and Americans by pronouncing flattering words addressed to the Soviet Union. Massigli immediately sent a telegram to all the French delegations in which he ordered them not to give any importance to these words of the president. He wrote in this telegram that France, as before, based its policy on an alliance with the English and the Americans. Thorez says Palewski told him how he had spoken with J.V. Stalin about Thorez's arrest.

Comrade Stalin confirms that such a conversation had indeed taken place. During this conversation with Palewski, he, Stalin, jokingly asked him if Thorez would be arrested as soon as he arrived in France. Palewski replied, "Come on!" We will see!"

Thorez says that Frachon asked him, if the opportunity arose, to tell Comrade Stalin the following. When Frachon was in the United States, he witnessed the following. The American reactionaries are waging a relentless campaign against the "Reds". One day an American was asked if he was a communist or not. The latter replied that he was not a communist. But he was told that he was, that he was a communist because his son was named Joseph. And since you gave your son Stalin’s name, it shows that you are a communist.

Comrade Stalin remarks that when someone gets dollars, they lose their soul. The pockets swell, but the head empties. Comrade Stalin asks when Thorez intends to leave.

Thorez replies that he will leave the day after tomorrow, November 20. All he has to do is complete the passport formalities. Thorez says he is very satisfied with his stay in Moscow. He had the chance to participate in the ceremonies of the 30th anniversary of October. Thorez says that he was received in the USSR like a king, as they say in France.

Thorez says that he made a very interesting visit to the "Stalin" car factory. He had visited this factory before, but 22 years ago when it was still called AMO. Today, he, Thorez, was able to see how far this factory has come [during those years].

Comrade Stalin declares that industry is developing in our country and asks whether it is the same in France.

Thorez replies that after a period of take-off, the curve of French industry is falling again.

Comrade Stalin asks if there is unemployment in France.

Thorez replies that there is no unemployment in France.

Comrade Stalin asks how many workers there are in France.

Thorez replies that France has 10-11 million workers, including transport and railway workers.

Comrade Stalin asks if French metallurgy is recovering.

Thorez replies that metallurgy ss recovering very slowly. The lack of cast iron is felt, there is no coke. The automotive industry is suffering greatly from the lack of steel. In addition, France has not managed to reignite all the blast furnaces.

Comrade Stalin asks if France has coking coal.

Thorez replies that France has very little coking coal. Bidault made a mistake in thinking that the annexation of the Saar would solve this problem. In fact, there is very little coal in the Saar and it is used locally or exported to other German areas. In addition, the coal found in the Saar is not coking-coal, which is why the Saar itself imports coke from the Ruhr. Thorez says that the metallurgical industry is concentrated in certain areas of Lorraine. However, these areas cannot be associated with the Saar because they are in competition with each other, and the Saar cannot be their complement.

Comrade Stalin asks what is the situation in the north of France from the point of view of coal.

Thorez replies that France extracted 20% more coal than before the war. This is only due to the enthusiasm shown by the miners. The French Communist Party addressed them urging them to increase coal mining. However, now that many Communists have been excluded from the leadership of the coal mining administration, there is discontent among the miners and coal mining is declining.

Comrade Stalin asks if all the representatives of the famous two hundred families are still in place.

Thorez says they are still in France. The nationalisation of the mining industry has been carried out while maintaining the profit system, which is greatly detrimental to the state budget. Four banks have been nationalised in France. However, two of the most important banks are still in the private sector; de Gaulle's brother is deputy director of one of them, located in Paris. The Gas and Electricity Company of France needs significant investment. The capitalists do not invest their capital in these nationalised enterprises.

Comrade Stalin says that they certainly do not want to do that.

Thorez says that the Socialists were doing everything they could to give Americans the opportunity to invest their capital in French industry. The Ford company has invested in Poissonier. General Electric took over the Citroën factories. American groups are owners of the French electrical equipment. The process of American incursion into French economic life is particularly rapid in the French colonies, particularly in Morocco, French Guinea, Madagascar and elsewhere.

Comrade Stalin asks whether the British invest their capital in French industry. Thorez replies that it was mainly the Americans, much more than the English.

Comrade Stalin asks who, in the end, Bizerte belongs to.

Thorez replied that Bizerte has remained in the hands of the French. Comrade Stalin remembers that Churchill dreamed of getting his hands on Bizerte. Churchill, in his time, declared that English blood had been shed and that for this he wished to get Bizerte.

Thorez says that the Americans are establishing themselves in Morocco and the English in Tunisia. In Algeria, their interests clash and intertwine. Thorez notes the expansion of the Communists' influence in many French overseas territories. For example, in Martinique and Guadeloupe, the islands of the Antilles in the Caribbean, where the Communists hold two out of the three seats [in these departments] in the National Assembly. The Communists also have great influence in black Africa. The French National Assembly has twelve black Communist deputies. On Reunion Island, two of the three deputies are Communists. The deputy from Djibouti is a Communist. Thorez says that the Communists appointed General Petit as their representative in the French Union. This general was in his time military attaché in Moscow and, on his return to France, showed his sympathy for the Soviet Union and sought contact with the French Communists. He is an active member of the France-USSR Association and has very strong links with the French Communists. As a result, he was removed from office and placed in the reserves. Now the Communists have given him the function of representative in the French Union.

Comrade Stalin asks if France has an army.

Thorez replies that France has soldiers, but no army. France now has a total of 600,000 soldiers. They are stationed in Germany, North Africa, Indochina and other territories. France was not able to send to Indochina a division that was indispensable to it; this is an indication of how weak the French army is. All the arms of the French army come from Great Britain.

Comrade Stalin asks if France does not produce any arms.

Thorez says that the French Communists are in favour of increasing arms production in France. But the Socialists are doing everything they can to put the brakes on. On one occasion, Thorez visited an armaments factory and made a speech to the workers in which he stressed that in order to fight for democracy and peace, to put an end to the Germans more quickly, it was indispensable to produce more armaments. This speech was used by the Socialists to launch a fierce campaign against Thorez and the Communists. The Socialists declared that as soon as the war was over, no armaments would be necessary. By the same token, they facilitated the machinations of the English and Americans who have an interest in supplying France with their own arms. The Socialists are for the liquidation of the aeronautical industry in France.

Comrade Stalin asks what independence can be spoken of without an army. Comrade Stalin asks if France has a General Staff.

Thorez replies that in France there are many general staffs, even more generals, much more than soldiers.

Comrade Stalin asks if France still has warships.

Thorez replies that the French still have a large warship and that at any moment the cruiser "Richelieu" could be refloated.

Comrade Stalin says that these materials must be used against the Socialists. It must be shown that the Socialists are in favour of the disarmament of the Nation.

Thorez says that the Socialists took the aircraft carrier "Columbus" from the English.

Comrade Stalin remarks that it is an aircraft carrier without aircraft.

Thorez replies that the Italians will keep their army, that the Italian fleet will be much stronger than the French when the Americans have given their share of ships to the Italians.

Comrade Molotov remarks that the ships that the Americans have left to the Italians will be destroyed.

Thorez says that a short time ago he visited General Catroux and they talked about the army. He, Thorez, asked Catroux what France was able to do at the moment. Twenty-five years ago, when the Germans refused to deliver coal to France, Poincaré invaded the Ruhr. Today, while the English and Americans not only do not give coal to the French but forbid them from taking control of the Ruhr, France can do nothing. Thorez told Catroux that the situation in France today is such that it is unable to do what Poincaré did twenty-five years ago. Catroux replied to Thorez that France has no army and that he had always told de Gaulle this.

Comrade Stalin says that it is interesting to see how things turned out. Twenty years ago the Communists were called the enemies of the Fatherland and now the only ones who defend the Fatherland are the Communists. The slogan of the country's independence is that of the Communists and only of them. Today, they are the most intransigent defenders of their country's independence. The Communists can proclaim that they are the only ones to defend the honour and power of their Nation.

Thorez said that, following Comrade Stalin's remarks, he would like to draw attention to the fact that twenty/twenty-five years ago the Socialists were leading the struggle against the working class and against the Communists. And then they intervened under the banner of social-patriots. Today they continue their struggle against the Communists and the working class, but they intervene as the faithful servants of US imperialism.

Comrade Stalin remarks that [the Socialists] have sunk low, very low. Comrade Stalin says that Ramadier is a dirty swindler and remarks that before no one heard of him.

Thorez replies that Ramadier was a petty lawyer and a petty provincial politician. For a time he was a Socialist, but then when the Socialist Party split, he supported Déat. He did not rejoin the ranks of the Socialist Party until after the Liberation of France.

Comrade Stalin asks what has become of Doriot.

Thorez replies that Doriot had been killed in Germany by a bomb explosion. He died dressed in a German officer's uniform.

Comrade Stalin remarks: "What a bastard." Comrade Stalin said that at the time the Germans were approaching Moscow, Doriot had formed a troop of so-called French volunteers.

Thorez says that Doriot is a coward who has always been careful to be found in the back.

Comrade Molotov remarks that Doriot was a German spy.

Thorez says that Doriot had become a renegade as early as 1925 when he was just twenty-seven years old. During an altercation with the police, he had kicked a police officer to death. He was arrested and remained in jail for only eight days before being released.

Comrade Stalin says he was recruited [at that time].

Thorez recounts that after this Doriot came into opposition with the Central Committee of the PCF on all questions. He spoke out against the Central Committee in 1926 when Comrade Stalin studied his case in a special commission. He spoke out against the Communist Party in 1927. In 1929 Doriot spoke out against the Soviet Union and the policy of friendship with the Soviet Union. In 1934, when the fascist threat loomed over the world, he supported Hitler's Germany in his speeches. He thought fascism was all-powerful. Doriot declared that if fascism had prevailed in Germany, it would invariably prevail in the other countries.

Comrade Molotov says that Doriot was a German agent.

Comrade Stalin remarks that Doriot had been recruited by the police. Then the French police gave their agent to the Germans who recruited him.

Comrade Stalin asks how Herriot is.

Thorez replies that Herriot was the president of the National Assembly and the leader of the Radicals. He is a man of convictions. At a congress of Radicals held during the Occupation, he made a speech in which he said that France had been beaten for not having been able to conduct a correct policy towards the Soviet Union and for not worrying about its arms. Daladier spoke out against him by claiming that Russia was the enemy of France and that Germany was the friend of the French.

Comrade Stalin asks what is the importance of the Radical Party today. Thorez remarks that today the Radicals are almost of no importance.

Thorez says that the peasants who used to vote for the Radicals now go directly to the Communists without going through the MRP. These peasants are anticlerical and are great patriots. They recognize the merits of the French Communists in the struggle for the independence of France.

Comrade Stalin says that "our friend Daladier" in 1940 made much of his plans to send troops through Finland to fight against the USSR.

Thorez states that at the same time Massigli was busy with plans to bomb Baku. Thorez says that it seemed to him that Comrade Molotov has met Massigli.

Comrade Molotov jokingly replies that he has many friends and that among his best friends is Byrnes, who talks a lot about him, Molotov, in his latest book.

Comrade Stalin says that in France a great patriotic wave is emerging. The French ruling circles have killed the state by leaving it without an army, a navy and a military industry.

Comrade Molotov says that the patriotic movement must attach itself to that part of the intelligentsia which cherishes the independence of its state, its cinema and other fields of national activity.

Thorez says that the Communists are sometimes criticised, as de Gaulle criticised Thorez, saying that although the Communists are patriotic, they have other ideas in the back of their heads.

Comrade Stalin states that de Gaulle thinks he is a general, but he does not create an army.

Comrade Stalin asks what is being said about General Juin.

Thorez replied that Juin has been placed in the reserve. Thorez says that Juin is a very skilled general on the military level. He has only one "fault", that of having been freed by the Hitlerites and sent by the Germans to work in North Africa. Juin, from the military point of view, is one of the best French generals. He was able to integrate the experience of the Red Army's military operations. In particular, Juin used the experience of the Red Army during one of the operations carried out in Italy in the area of Monte Cassino. He told Thorez that he had managed to take the fortress almost without any loss of life thanks to the concentration of a large number of guns in this area where, at every metre, there was a cannon. In a speech at the meeting of the France-USSR Association, Juin openly stated that he wished that France had an army such as that of the Soviet Union.

Comrade Stalin asks what the relations are between Juin and de Gaulle. Thorez replies that de Gaulle had Juin placed in the reserve because he feared his competition. [Because] de Gaulle never won a single battle.

Comrade Stalin adds, jokingly, that de Gaulle never lost a single battle. Thorez confirms this and says that this could only have happened thanks to the fact that de Gaulle never participated in a single battle.

As he took his leave, Comrade Stalin wished Thorez and the French Communist Party every success.

The interview lasted 2 hours and 30 minutes.

Presidential Archives of the Russian Federation, 45/1/392/83-106.

First published in Istoricheskiy Arkhiv [Historical Archives], No. 1, 1996.

Communisme , n° 45-46, 1996, pp. 35-54.

Translated from the French by George Gruenthal

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